Interview: Church in Mongolia can inspire universal Church

I.Media recently interviewed Rome-based journalist Marie-Lucile Kubacki, who just published a book in French (Jésus en Mongolie) on the Church in Mongolia. Here are her insights and reflections.

Your book was inspired by the announcement in May 2022 that Giorgio Marengo, Apostolic Prefect of Ulan Bator in Mongolia, would be created Cardinal, the youngest member of the College of Cardinals at the time. What struck you about Cardinal Marengo's personality?

Marie-Lucile Kubacki: Studying his profile to prepare for an interview in 2023, I discovered that he had theorized his approach to evangelization as a “whisper,” speaking of “whispering the Gospel in the heart of Mongolia.” This piqued my curiosity.

What struck me about him was his great simplicity and spiritual depth. He easily talks with people in an informal tone, but this informality isn’t too familiar; it's a habit with an evangelical basis. He also respects a certain distance; this reflects a desire not to be overbearing, but rather to listen.

This is reflected in his missionary approach, in his conception of evangelization as “whispering,” which implies listening to others in order to build an authentic dialogue. There’s no self-effacement on his part, because he is fully committed to the proclamation of God, but there’s nothing invasive or proselytizing about it.

What also struck me was his commitment to passing on Mongolian culture. Upon meeting him, I immediately felt his love for this country, its culture, and its history. For example, he suggested I visit Karakorum, the ancient capital of the Mongol empire.

He is a great connoisseur of this culture, and in particular of the Mongolian language, which he speaks fluently. It's a very difficult language to learn, different from Western languages, and most missionaries take two, three, or even four years to be able to use it properly.

Cardinal Marengo didn't just master the Mongolian language: he also conducted extensive research into the country's history and anthropology. He’s well acquainted with Mongolian life today, both in the countryside and in the city.

He is aware that he is carrying out his ministry in a society rooted in strong traditions, but also subject to the direct effects of globalized modernity. This is particularly true in Ulaanbatar, a city in the throes of transformation with construction sites everywhere. The cardinal understands the complexity of Mongolia without reducing it to folklore.

Pope Francis' decision to make Giorgio Marengo a cardinal in 2022, as well as his decision to visit Mongolia—a first for a pope—in 2023, may have surprised many observers. This country, after all, has fewer than 1,500 Catholics. How do you explain this choice?

Kubacki: In this book, I wanted to observe how a Christian minority lives in a non-Christian society. It's interesting, especially at a time when Europe is experiencing a sense of political and religious collapse. The curves of religious practice and infant baptisms [in Europe] are plummeting, attesting to an ongoing phenomenon of minorization. I wondered what these first Christians of Mongolia, who have been present for some 30 years—and in particular these 1,450 faithful Catholics—could teach us.

This is not a ready-made lesson, of course, because the situations aren’t comparable. Europe is shaped by Christianity, even if we are witnessing a process of de-Christianization that is shaking up believers in their relationship with the world. How can we be Christian in a society that is less and less so?

What I saw in Mongolia was the germinal reality of a Church under construction, built around the essentials of faith. We're rediscovering a kind of living sap that has sometimes been lost over the centuries or through the disappointments of history, as recently with the scandals of sexual violence and abuse.

What is the original charisma or “faith of origins” that you observe in the Mongolian Catholic community?

Kubacki: It's the notion of simplicity, which is central. Because the first proclamation of the Gospel requires witnessing and living simply. Mongolian Christians attach great importance to relationships and community: mutual support, communal prayer and sharing concerns. But also the possibility of a personal relationship with God. This is very reminiscent of the early Christian Church. Brotherhood is very important, as is simplicity.

Today in Mongolia, there’s only one local priest on duty, and the “ecclesial staff” is made up of some 60 foreign missionaries. There are also around 40 Mongolian catechists. This is a Church that favors personal encounters, and there's no place for institutional weightiness.

There are no debates about details, no theological quarrels, which are sometimes found elsewhere. Here, everything happens around the table: we serve, we share bread, the Word of God and friendships.

This is where I came to understand the idea of evangelization that proceeds by attraction, not proselytism. Attraction comes through genuine human encounters. As I collected testimonies from Mongolians explaining how they came to faith, I noticed that they often evoked the strangeness of these foreign missionaries' lives. “You have a Schengen passport, you could have married, lived in your own country; why are you here?” one of them asked an Italian missionary.

If their presence can thus arouse suspicion, it’s also an enigma conducive to provoking a disinterested encounter, where the Mongolians feel that there is no desire to “capture” them. It’s in this moment of free sharing that the spark of faith is born. For me, this lies at the heart of the Mongolian Church's witness.

Pope Francis also often insists that every culture has the capacity to illuminate the Christian faith in its own way. What does he see in the Church in Mongolia?

Kubacki: In his latest autobiography, Pope Francis speaks of his trip to Mongolia as the most “eccentric” and says he was touched by the “wisdom” dimension of Mongolian culture. This word recurred several times in his speeches during the trip.

Mongolian wisdom is first and foremost a relationship with nature, since this is a culture shaped by nomadism, a relationship permeated by shamanism. Nomadism implies a certain frugality: a nomad who possesses too many objects is a dead nomad, because you can't encumber yourself.

It's about listening to the rhythm of nature and the seasons. This ties in with all the concerns expressed by Francis in Laudato si' about protecting the common home, not predating on the environment, and not plundering environmental wealth.

During his trip, the Pope also stressed the importance of meditation and contemplation in Buddhism. All these dimensions, which give pride of place to the spiritual side of every human being, form for Francis a popular wisdom that he seeks to value.

That's why he encourages expressions of popular faith. He emphasizes the simple way in which people relate to God. In this respect, Mongolian culture has left its mark on the Pope.

Your book broadens its reflection from Mongolia to try and better understand the reality of the Church in Asia, which, as you note, seems to be of particular interest to Pope Francis. What are the specific characteristics of the Catholic Church on this continent?

Kubacki: Most of the Churches in Asia, with a few exceptions, operate as a minority, even if each “minority” is different. It’s this context that gives rise to an attitude of dialogue with other cultures and religions.

Cardinal Marengo, for example, is heavily involved in dialogue at institutional level, and organized the first two meetings between Mongolian Buddhist leaders and the Pope at the Vatican, the latest of which took place last January. Churches in Asia have to adapt to very diverse contexts. Asia is undoubtedly characterized by its extreme diversity of religious, social and political situations, which sets it apart from other continents.

Pope Francis' interest in Asia, over and above what is usually said—the fact that he is a Jesuit, his missionary vocation in Japan, etc.—lies in this relationship with multiplicity and this ability to integrate it into people's lives.

Do you think it would be possible to have an Asian pope in one of the next conclaves?

Kubacki: That's an impossible question! And the history of conclaves suggests that we should be cautious about making predictions. What may be new is that the number of cardinals on this vast continent has doubled under Francis' pontificate, and that in Asia, there is an emerging awareness of the possibility of an Asian voice of its own.

This was evident at the Synod on Synodality, during which participants experienced this shared awareness. They felt that Asia could have its own voice. If this experience matures, and an Asian cardinal rallies beyond Asia, we could have an Asian pope.

However, my analysis for the time being is that Asia is still too fragmented to imagine an Asian bloc voting massively for an Asian pope, not to mention that the criteria for choosing a pope go beyond the question of his origins.

Beyond the overall dynamic, do you see any remarkable personalities emerging?

Kubacki: What's really new is that indeed some great Asian figures have emerged in recent years. This applies both to those in the Curia—Cardinal Tagle or Cardinal You—and to personages  like the Cardinal Archbishop of Tokyo, who currently heads Caritas worldwide, or the Archbishop of Hong Kong, Stephen Chow.

Some of these Asian cardinals may embody a prophetic voice, all the more so in archipelagic, fragmented societies, where globalization makes diversity an increasingly important issue.

Increasingly, the challenge for Christians will be to find their place within a multiplicity of voices and groups that think differently. In this sense, the Mongolian Church can inspire the universal Church. Our Churches are dying of debating both too much and poorly. We’re often prisoners of ideological conflicts that are sometimes very short-sighted, but above all of attitudes of judging our brothers. These are counter-witnesses, a phenomenon aggravated by social networks and the culture of clashing and of mocking others. The result is a fear of tackling issues in depth.

The Asian Churches aren’t perfect, but in their ability to stand together in often minority situations, they could help us in this respect. This ties in with what Ratzinger said in an interview in 1969 about the future of the Church, which without having “the dominant power of the past” will be increasingly called upon to experience “renewal.”